Hello everyone. Thank you for joining today's live webinar. I'm your host, Dr. Shah Siddiki.

Today we have a very special episode, and I have two special guests. And you've probably seen them on my past lives. But today we're going to be discussing lived experience at work, listening and learning from disabled colleagues. So we're going to be talking to two very important people. They are working relentlessly to improve the disability and as well as disability related work and as well as access. So today, our first guest is Annamarie Askew. So you probably know her. We've been to a couple of lives together. And it's a great pleasure, Annamarie, to have you with us. How are you today?

Oh, thank you so much, and thank you for inviting me to come to today's session. Um yeah, I'm with the board director of Toucan Diversity, and I'm really pleased to be here today.

Thank you very much, Annamarie. So I will introduce our next guest and the fabulous Rob Trent. And we've also done... every month we do a live from Access Advisor. But today we combined Annamarie and Rob Trent together to talk about disability and lived experience, how we are managing and coping and how we are supporting disabled communities as well as less able communities. So, Annamarie, I just wanted to ask you the first thing, if you could tell us the viewers a little bit about Toucan Diversity, how it is supporting disabled people?

Yeah. Um, well we are a disabled people led organization. So 80% of the people who are involved with Toucan have a lived experience of disability. So that knowledge which, you know, all our people who are involved with Toucan bring to the table is really huge, and inclusion means everything to us. So it's not just a word. Um because every single person who is involved with Toucan has experienced some kind of discrimination and we want to make sure that anybody who's involved is supported as good as possible. And so what we do, we do deliver disability equality training. Um, we have a whole range of um different modules which we provide, but the main flagship is the disability equality training where we look at the bias, we look at the history and why non-disabled people think in the way how they do about disability, why it is such a tragic thing to be disabled. Um, we also look at the etiquette and how we can support people and then the final part of this main training is, you know, how to implement reasonable adjustments, making sure that people are supported as best as possible, you know, in any environment as such.

Thank you very much Annamarie and I think our viewers they already know about Toucan Diversity. Uh the work you are doing for the community, it's mind-blowing. I was out of the country. Uh I couldn't join the jumping from the from from the helicopter, you know? I was really eager to do that but next time I will be there to do it. Rob, it's amazing the work you do and the people they contribute to Toucan Diversity together. So, I just wanted to ask Rob a question about if you could introduce our viewers about you and about Access Advisor, please.

Okay. Well, my name's Rob, obviously. I work mainly now trying to build an accessible brand called Access Advisor. Our slogan is disabled people going places. Really, we want to provide support for disabled people in terms of accessibility. We've got a Facebook group, we've got a website, obviously, a YouTube channel where people can upload their accessibility videos. We're trying to build, build Access Advisor so that we become a sustainable business and we can employ disabled people. I myself am disabled, I've got so many years of lived experience. I won't tell you how many, but I've been disabled since I was born. Um, and before Access Advisor, I worked full-time. So, you know, hopefully in a way that's showcasing the skills and the lived experience that disabled people can bring and some disabled people can work full-time. I worked full-time for 30 years and hopefully, you know, that serves as some kind of sign for other disabled people that it can be done if you want.

That's that's that's that's amazing the work you do, uh Rob. Because um to the viewers, I just wanted to give you an additional introduction to Rob and Annamarie, because I've been working with them such a long time now. We work together, support each other. So, Annamarie has a story behind uh Toucan Diversity. And I wanted to focus and tell the audience about the back, you know, I would say steering wheel, that you are steering a thing, a movement I would say, and that has a back story. Could you please tell a little bit about that story to our audience?

Okay.

Thank you. Annamarie, yeah.

Well, I got involved with um Toucan Diversity because my daughter had a hard time to find a job. She, I mean she wrote hundreds of um applications but was unable to get a job and she came to me and said look you know I need to set up my own entity. Um and um so it was really her idea and because I had experience in setting up charities and other organizations, um and she came to me for support. So that's what we did. That's the story. And unfortunately, so she was a wheelchair user and she yeah, so that that was the main issue. So she, she thought of um setting up like a training organization because of all the discrimination she had experienced. Um, and she designed her own training course, which is our flagship training, the disability equality training, um and which is now CPD accredited. Um and yes, so uh unfortunately my daughter passed away in 2020, which is five years now. I, I just cannot believe it. Um and we as a board, we decided at the time to continue with her work, um because she put so many years of effort into it. So I think it really resonates with all of us to continue the work and and um ensuring that there is, you know, a supportive place for disabled people out there that they can get into work. Uh yeah, and I think we do achieve that, you know, with um organizations who are actually commission us to deliver our training.

Thank you, Annamarie, because I was touched when I heard about your story, your daughter and other things. And I, I also know about Rob, and Rob is a mouth artist. If you don't know, anyone they're joining today. So, Rob, yes, we're working together for Access Advisor to grow into the next levels. And it's a movement, and we're going to be winning in this race and that is our challenge. Can you tell us a bit more to the audience, why Access Advisor? Why you have come up with this excellent idea for bringing it to the audience?

I'm just saying, to me, it was obvious, you know, I've had so many years of putting up with poor accessibility, um, dealing with excuses that people make, being asked to leave places because back in the 70s my wheelchair was deemed a fire risk and that's an excuse that I never thought I'd hear again, but you still hear it again today. So, you know, I I just got fed up with it and I thought, well, there must be a better way. There must be a better way of letting disabled people know my experience or other people's experience of accessibility at certain venues. And that's how Access Advisor was set up, really. It isn't just about me. I don't want it just to be about my experience because my experience is just that, really. You know, I want it to be for disabled people who aren't wheelchair users, for neurodivergent disabled people and all kinds of disabilities. And it'll only grow with the input of everybody, you know, with different kinds of disabilities and their allies, you know. And accessibility, although it's mainly around disabled people, you know, there are issues for people with push chairs and prams or cyclists and maybe this website in a way inadvertently helps those groups as well.

Thank you, Rob. Thank you, Rob. So, now we're going to be going to asking individual questions. So as you refer to neurodiversity, uh this is our first topic that we wanted to talk about. You know nowadays, there is a movement about neurodiversity. Uh people value us that much that okay, neurodiversity means different blood, neurodiversity means fresh ideas, neurodiversity means okay, they can work like a machine, all those things. I want to ask one question to Annamarie, because you support different types of support for autism, dyslexia, and apraxia and all together. Why you think that neurodivergent people are an asset rather than making them a superhero?

I didn't get the last bit of your question, but I think I got the gist of it. I mean, um I think um society would be a very poor society if we wouldn't have the amazing um brains and and and understanding of people who are neurodivergent because um you just have to look at um Branson and and and all these amazing uh creative minds who have been out there, you know, um who are um well known. Um, and obviously, we have recently designed an understanding autism course which we have been working with Portsmouth Room 1 where autistic people have been involved with from the word go. Indeed it has been the content has been written by a volunteer of ours who is autistic, um and it's now at the moment we have a forum um looking at it to improve it further, ensuring that we have got the right visuals involved, etc. But it gives you a really good understanding of um autism, for instance. So, uh what kind of environment one has got to create in order to accommodate autistic people um and and and what not, you know, what language is acceptable and what is not acceptable. Uh, and that's all what it is. It's all part of communication and and making sure they are supported, you know, in a way how it's acceptable.

My question to Rob. You know, you work with disabled people and you also work with neurodivergent people. What strength do they bring to a team if you hire disabled or neurodivergent people?

I'm just saying, I think we all bring different strengths, but I I think the the crux for me is that by employing neurodivergent people, disabled people, or other disabled people, ambulant disabled people, is that people can relate to our audience, to our business. Um we understand them, what drives those markets, we're able to reach out to those markets and say, 'Hey, look, we're not just Rob Trent a wheelchair user, so we're only interested in wheelchair users, but you know, we have people who are neurodivergent on our board. We have people with uh visual disabilities on our board, and our organization. So to me it's about, you know, there's a business case for doing these things. Um there's an ethical business case as well. Why do we just want to employ wheelchair users? Why do we just want to employ able-bodied people when everybody has different strengths they can bring to an organization? I hopefully bring some strengths like project management and risk management from skills that I've learned when I was working full-time, and other disabled people bring their strengths. And without those strengths creating, you know, a holistic approach, then we're just going to be a very narrowly focused business, and that's not what I want.

Thank you very much. I think from this discussion, we totally understand that when you bring disabled people and as well as neurodivergent people together to a workplace, in relation with adding value, you can bring together the community. Because, on a specific community, you have disabled, you have less able, you have people they have mental health illness or disability or many other things. So, if you wanted to grow and progress your business in current age, you cannot grow your business if you don't think about that percentage. So, when I was a child, I lived in Bangladesh. People here they don't understand disability. They don't understand neurodiversity. Now, there is a shift towards it because everyone is embracing neurodivergent people now because they are intelligent, they are different although they have some specific needs, but if you cater those needs, they can be super proactive. They can be useful to the audience. So my next question to Annamarie, why we need to be adaptive to hire disabled or neurodivergent people? What we should think before we start adaptation?

Yeah, it really depends where you are with the conversation. If you're thinking about, then you have to also adjust your questions, your advert to make sure that people feel included when they see, you know, and it depends what you're looking for, what kind of person you're looking for in general. And it's all about you know, the communication of and and and creating that inclusive work culture which you want to achieve. Um so yeah, and and once you have got that conversation going and and talk to the individual person, and I think that's the most important action is to talk to the person directly to find out what their needs are and how you can support them. It's actually a very simple question rather than, you know, building, you know, a picture of assumptions, because the people themselves know, you know, how they want to be supported and what what their needs are. So, um it's not a science, it's not very difficult to get, you know, it's just common sense and and stay away from assumption for sure. I mean that's my take.

Thank you. I just wanted to ask a question to Rob as well, because you know, you have lived experience working with all classes of people. I have seen myself in my lifetime, that usually colleagues, they become your enemy, because as a disabled person, you're getting some extra benefits and they are not getting that benefits because they are more able than as usually you are. So in that scenario, how you have managed this thing? Because I know that in workplace still this is happening, like okay people, they are more able than you, they think about okay, he's getting or she's getting more benefits than as usual.

I mean, I must say I've been fairly lucky in my career and in my life. I've not really met a lot of that in terms of jealousy or envy and I've always tried when I'm working, you know, to work alongside other people and and give the best that I can and show that I'm I'm doing the best I can. Any assistance I've been given hasn't, I don't think, favored me over anyone else. It's just allowed me to do the job to the best of my ability and that's what an organization wants, is for you to do the job to the best of your ability. Now I think, you know, I'm lost for the word, but jealousy or envy over benefits is luckily something I've not really come across in my life.

So, I wanted to ask a question to Annamarie. You know, you do a lot of training to work levels and as well as individual you work with students as well. Do you feel anything right now that they need when you talk about specific training or change of behavior? Like we need to be adaptive with disabled people and as well as neurodivergent people. Do you see any changes towards human behavior when you're training workforce or students about learning disability or neurodiversity?

I mean that's really difficult because that's, you know, part of our impact study as well to see actually if people are shifting with their attitude towards starting to employ people. I mean, with regards to learning disability, like what you just mentioned, there is a lot of support out there. They have got coaches and usually they are on programs. But with actually real employment, there's a lot of there is still a huge work which needs to be done because only 5.6% of people with learning disability are in employment, and that includes often people with autism as well. So, and it's a huge chunk if you think about, you know, 53% of disabled people who are in employment and then you have got in comparison, you have got the learning disabled people with you know, 5 point maybe 6% now. Uh and it has been, you know, a lot of money has gone into that. I do think the government has to take a different take on it. They have to work with companies much more closer because at the moment the ethos lies very much with the disabled person themselves. But it's the companies who are very reluctant to employ disabled people. And I think there must be another way. I mean, I have got some ideas, but obviously, to really change the landscape for disabled people, things will just plod along. A lot of money will be poured in in supporting individuals, but not very much will change, actually. Um, so yeah.

So Rob, do you see any changes towards people's behavior? Because I think you have seen the beginning and we are in the middle of this system change towards disabled people and new diversity. What changes do you think has been you have seen or experienced so far?

Okay. I think as I was growing up, the society was fairly not intolerant but not really considerate of disabled people's needs. Then in the 70s and 80s we started to see a big push towards inclusion and that was led by disabled people themselves and ourselves. You know, I fought along with someone else to be able to live independently here in Southampton where I am now and been living ever since. You know, independent living became a thing for many, many disabled people and that was great. And so we started to see things like Motability really helping disabled people. I got a van which I was able to drive from my wheelchair despite my disability. It was joystick control, you know, it cost a lot of money but it helped me get to work and it helped me get from work and it helped me take my family out. And I think we saw a move towards more inclusive society. But then along came austerity and I think disabled people became financially the victims of that austerity or the primary victims of that austerity. And then we saw over the years that I think the pendulum's now swinging the other way where disabled people are starting to be sort of vilified and picked out as examples of scroungers. And it's very difficult because if you work then people say, why do you need the help? And if you don't as a disabled people, they say you're sponging off the state. So you know, we need to, I think we need to see another shift back towards a more tolerant and a more inclusive society where innovative ideas to get disabled people who want to work and who can work back into work. Because as Amery said, you know, companies are reluctant to employ disabled people. That's a fact.

I totally agree with you because the way the system has changed so far, I think that's towards you know, positives. Because the way people used to treat disabled because you know, when you think that okay people, disabled people, they think that okay, they they can't do anything. Okay, they are good for nothing. And when they used to think about neurodivergent people, they said okay, they can't do anything because they don't have a mental strength, they don't have the mental capacity. But the more research has been done and more, you know, more and more people understood the disability, disabled people and working with them, they understood that yes, you can work with disabled people and you can create magnificent things with disabled people, extraordinary things with disabled people. My next question to both of you. I want Annamarie, you answer first. How can workplace better listen to and support disabled colleague?

I mean what communication and foremost to find out what how with them. Um and then it's about being flexible, working different, you know, looking at people's strengths and and and focusing on that and if wherever the weakness lies, get the support in place for them. So yeah, I mean it is not rocket science. It's you know, just you know, thinking, you know, in the right way and and what I would like to add actually from previously there are companies doing actually a lot of good who are keen on employing disabled people. So, but it is there are so many companies out there who, you know, um who could do better. So, you know, it's just, you know, I don't want to brush every company with the same brush. Um yeah, so sorry.

And Rob.

Well, to me, I think it's companies can do better employing disabled people, but I also think companies could do better in thinking how the products that they sell or the services that they sell can be accessed equally by disabled people. Because, you know, we do want to work, but we also want to partake of all the services and the entertainment and the facilities that able-bodied people sometimes take for granted. Like buying a ticket for a concert or or just going out to the pub. It's taking part in all the aspects of daily life and companies need to need to consider that when, you know, when they're building their products or designing their services. And that's why if you've got disabled people in your organization, you're more likely to design and include products and services for other disabled people as well.

Thank you very much Annamarie and Rob. We had a pleasant session today and to all the viewers, if you want to send us any question that we can discuss on this live webinar, we'll be more than happy to discuss them. We just got our first question. So just give me one second. So the question is from Pearly Shaha. How can technology improve accessibility at work? I think both of you can answer this question in in different perspectives.

Um yeah, I mean technology is huge. I mean, there are so many built-in software programs already with any laptop or system. Um technology, look at Alexa, you know, voice activated um and that you you can then get smart sockets to go with that to help a person, you know, and and there are lots of organizations who can help you even further with technology. Um you know, to moving desks down and up and down and with a much effort. Um yeah, I mean technology has been huge in in and and creating, you know, um making it easier for disabled people, you know, to be equal to their colleagues. I don't know what about you, Rob.

Annamarie stole all my answers, but uh I'll give I'll give you an idea. I mean for me, technology, when I'm painting now, I've got an easel that was made um to go up and down by the sound of my voice or the press of a button. So that's one aspect of how it helped me in my art. When I was at work, as Annamarie said, I had a desk that went up and down, moved up and down and I was able to control it. When I went to work, they fixed it up so that my security card was attached to my wheelchair and every time I went to the barriers, they would automatically open without me lifting it for me. In my art studio, I've got a voice-controlled air conditioning, so I'm sitting in the nice warm heat now and it's lovely. I've also got a voice-controlled smart speaker. I mean these are just things, you know, and technology is improving every day. You've got sticky keys options on the keyboards that weren't around back then. So it's really, you know, technology I think is it can empower disabled people. But I think, and I'm going to go off on a on a lecture here, we must sort of make sure that we don't use it to alienate disabled people either, because technology's great, but there's that aspect of human interaction, you know, that we all want and need and so things like, I don't know, AI robots talking to people don't necessarily replace human interaction.

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, technology is is really supportive, I would say, for disabled people because if I think about myself, I am dyslexic and uh short memory and I have lots of other disabilities. So, in every situation, I have to utilize technology. So technology is upfront to help me in many, many situations. So thank you very much Pearly for your question. I have next question from Zakir Khan. So he said, 'How can workplace better listen to and support disabled colleagues?' I think that's very important. Thank you very much Zakir for asking this question to us. How can workplace better listen and support disabled colleagues? Annamarie.

Yeah. I mean, um I mean this is what what we do with our reasonable adjustment training and we always say communication is uh the most important thing uh to find out what um your colleague um would like, you know, support in. Uh don't ever assume. Um you know, make sure that you get it right because there's nothing more infuriating than um putting things in place and they actually are not needed. Um so, yeah, always just talk to the person and um create, you know, with that you will create an inclusive um work, you know, culture. Uh if you continue to do that, you know, take each person as an individual and um yeah, I think that is the way and that's that's definitely, you know, one of the most important things uh to keep the communication open and then find out if that worked, if there's anything else they need. Try and and and um maybe have a mentoring system in place as well to help and you know, ease people into the job. Um so there is there's a lot of you know way of being creative and and getting you know um that support in place for an individual.

Thank you. Thank you Annamarie. And Rob, the same question.

I think it's things like setting up groups for equality and diversity within the workplace, inviting all those people, you know, inviting anyone who wants to come along. You set up a either a disability focused group or an inclusion and diversity work group, that kind of thing to listen to disabled people's needs, find out what bugs them about working where they do work, if they're working there, what could we do better to make those things more easier for you? You know, because some people find some things difficult that others would think are easy. So I think it's just about getting getting people together and listening to their needs and and and and their their stories, understanding where they come from and what their needs are.

Thank you. Thank you Rob. So my next question is from Ridwan. 'What support do managers need to lead diverse team effectively?' So what support do a disability organization's manager needs or any other organization needs to lead a diverse team?

I'll jump in first so I can steal all Annamarie's answers this time. I think the question, what support do managers need? I think you also need, you also need managers that belong to those diverse groups as well. It's not about just, you know, leading diverse teams, but you need to employ managers into those managers from diverse groups to help do that. And I think it's an understanding, I think a manager needs to understand his team. It may not be disabled people, it may be all able-bodied people, but they all have differences and they all have different needs and different requirements and different workplace requirements. And so I think it's about learning what drives people, putting people in the, if you've got a team that does different jobs, you find the person best suited to do that job. Don't just give it to A or B, you know, just you've got to think about the people that are in your team.

Thank you. Thank you Rob. Annamarie, same question.

Yeah, um I think um the manager would need support from from their line managers. Um and I think uh if you want to really create um an inclusive workplace, uh it should come from the very top. And once, you know, the MD is in that right frame of mind, it will all fall into place. Attitude will change. Um and because um even as a middle manager, if you don't have the support, there's very little you can do. Uh yes, you with the right attitude and everything, but there are also limitations. So that's why I think it has got to come from the very top if you want within an organization. But it does make business sense and I think if you sell that, because I think we know that um, you know, inclusive workplaces have got 30% more profit than a non-inclusive environment. So these are statistics, you can't deny that. So if you look after your staff, I mean here in the UK you have it will cost around 6K uh in order to employ a new person into your business. So it would be much more advisable to look after your staff in a proper way and make sure that they are being taken care of.

I totally agree with you Annamarie and Rob. Because you know when you have a management, as Annamarie said and Rob Trent as well a reference, that it has to come from the top because the person they are the founder of the company. They need to understand how you're going to be treating your people and you know all all rules and lot of different things has to be maintained in a way that you understand everyone. The policies and all those things. If you don't have that, your manager, they cannot work alone to layout the individual rules or regulations or whatever because they will not get your point. So thank you and thank you everyone for joining today's live webinar. We are nearly end of our session so we have a few more minutes to talk about disabilities and as well as lived experience. And I just wanted to ask you Annamarie, can you share an experience working with maybe with organization or maybe working with your colleagues what makes you feel proud that you feel proud doing that with your disabled colleagues or disabled organizations?

Yeah, I think um and it's a bit like what the previous question was all about. I mean, we had an organization where the CEO got in touch and she was saying we need to do better for our to in order to support our clients and that was the the initial take. And so what the plan was that all of their staff were going through our training and then they realized that they had quite a few disabled employees themselves because it came all part of that conversation and they then looked at ways of how to accommodate and be more flexible with the people they actually had already employed. Um and what makes me really proud is that we are still part of that of that company's journey in improving um you know, A, the environment for the employees, but also for their clients. Um so I mean I think it's obviously easier manageable if you have got only 80 or 90, 100 staff, but but it is also equally manageable for larger organizations. Um so um but for us, I mean for for for Toucan that was a really proud moment and we are still, you know, now in talking and finding ways, you know, getting, you know, um therapy rooms looped, uh you know, or or different things, you know, whatever um they're coming to us with the question, you know, we have got X, Y, Z joining our company, how can we support them? My answer always is talk to the person directly and you know, and then um if you need any reasonable adjustment you think you you can but it it's all workable. It's just and it's really lovely, you know, to be involved in that process and and seeing the change happening.

Thank you Annamarie and Rob, the same questions. What make you proud working with disabled people? Can you uh tell us a story or any anything that you have?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, one of my passions is football and many years ago I worked with the Football Stadia Advisory Design Council, the FSADC. And I was on a panel that met, you know, two or three times a year um to look at funding for football clubs. They would apply, football clubs would make an application for funding and the FSADC panel would allocate that funding. And one of my, one of my role on that panel was to look at inclusion and how how the work that they wanted was improving the lives of disabled people or the ability of disabled people to go and watch football. So, you know, that's one of the things that I did which I think I was very proud of. Um often I was able to make recommendations, go back to the club and say, well if you did this or you did that, then that would strengthen your application. If you did something which would improve accessibility for disabled people, that would improve your chance of funding. So come back in a couple of months time with a with a renewed bid. So yeah, one of the things I was proud of.

Thank you very much Rob and Annamarie and to everyone. We might not be able to answer all the questions, but as we're doing this live, if Annamarie and Rob has some spare times, please go through with the questions and please answer those. We are nearly end of our session. So at the end, just I wanted to ask um two specific questions. First one is how people can support both of you? And second, do you wanted to have a closing remarks for the people? So Annamarie, please.

I don't get that. Do you want to find out how people can support me or

Yes, yes, as an organization.

Yeah. I mean, um um yeah, I mean if you um follow us on LinkedIn, Facebook, um Instagram, um and if you have any questions or queries, you know, with regards to disability equality training, um we're very happy to, I mean, we we give you free consultations and you will meet the team and you will find out more into details how we can support you as an organization. And we have a lot of toolkits which we can um give you as an organization um for free and um yeah, we would love to work with you and that with that you would support us, our organization because we obviously need the funds as well in order to pay our staff. Um and uh yeah, I'd love to hear from you. That's how you can support us. Thank you.

Thank you, Annamarie. Rob.

Again, it's it's funding, it it's people join join our communities on Facebook, Access Advisor Facebook, YouTube, follow us, subscribe to us. Um if you can't fund us, then, you know, please join us. We've got ways where you can sign up to easy fundraising where if you spend online, we get a percentage of that. It doesn't cost you anything. Um but support support us and most importantly support Toucan because they're, you know, they're a charity and they rely more on your funding as well and they're doing a great job. So I'd say give them the support if you can.

Thank you very much Rob and thank you Annamarie and thank you everyone for joining today's live. As I continually work with Annamarie and Rob and uh to let you know that we are just developing the um Access Advisor new site. It will be launched very soon. We are just in the last stage of tweaking a lot of things. Access Advisor has a and Toucan Diversity has a new YouTube channels. And recently we have gained a million views on Access Advisor. And please go and support our YouTube channels because it also can support us to earn more money. So if you have time, please support our social media, LinkedIn, YouTube, Facebook groups, and as well as visit our website. And if you wanted to donate specifically, feel free to donate because Annamarie um Toucan Diversity is a CIC. So if you donate something, it will double up from the charity commission and other places. You can also donate Access Advisor because we need fund to continue our support for the disabled people because we are disabled and we are supporting disabled people. So thank you everyone and thank you Annamarie and Rob Trent and we will welcome you in another episode of our live webinar. Until then, stay tuned. Bye-bye.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.